In a previous months edition of Fly Tier's Bench, written by tying icon Charlie Craven, Charlie walked readers through the steps of tying the Two-Bit Hooker fly. I don't know precisely why he named the fly the Two-Bit Hooker, but did see it as a funny kind of a double entrendre. Along comes Todd Harper of St. Paul Minnesota with his letter to Fly Fisherman.
I wrote the following response:
I read with amusement, Todd Harper's issue with Charlie Craven's Two Bit Hooker. It takes some nerve to complain that an adult flytier needs to be careful about what he names his flies just in case an irresponsible parent responds to their questioning 10 year old, what a two bit hooker is. This is another example of what's wrong with America today. Everyone wants someone else to take care of their responsibilities. To Mr. Harper: When a 10 year old asks a question such as this, you really don't have to explain in detail. Most 10 year olds would have been satisfied with, "well honey, it's a bug people use to catch fish." Dilemma over.
My question to readers is this. Was this a breach of good taste? Should a fly tier or fly fishing magazine be held to someone's standards to make up for a parent's lack of common sense and responsibility? I think not.
glad you wrote what you did as I couldn't agree more. I'm just embarrassed for Mr Harper...he is probably the same guy that gets really pissed off at professional athletes for not being perfect role models...Charlie Craven and the magazine aren't responsible for parenting this guys kid, he is. Mr Harper needs to relax and realize that being an adult doesn't mean you need to lose your sense of humor...
ReplyDeletePerfect, Brother. I call Total Bullshit on his 10-year-old daughter reading an article about fly tying. The guy just made that part up...an attempt to win support.
ReplyDeleteWhoa! Check out the spinnin' cube!
Howard... If Mr. Harper is in anyway offended by Charlie having given his pattern the name of Two Bit Hooker, he really should step back and try to get a grasp on reality. I guess Charlie could have called it The Double Bead Baetis or something of that sort, but wait... that name is taken. It is difficult to find a name for a pattern this day and age! Last but not least it's high time that folks like Mr. Harper relax and stop trying to set standards for those around them. I don't see Mr. Harper commenting on patterns like "The Pole Dancer", The Lap Dancer or (God forbide) the "Sex Dungeon". In truth I really believe that this type of commentary is the result of some folks in this sport feeling the need to be somehow important... Some men or women make their mark on the stream, others at the fly bench and still others by being examples for others to look up to. In this case, I believe that Todd Harper and his posion pen are long past their 15 minutes of fame.
ReplyDeleteSanders, I couldn't help but wonder what type of idiot would tell his 10 year old what a hooker is? this guy needs to either let his wife handle questions or take some parenting classes.
ReplyDeleteDamn Jay, you made me spit Pepsi(really)on my monitor! I agree. I think he's going to regret his letter...made himself look like an ass under any circumstances. Hey! It does spin!
ReplyDeleteMM, Thank you for your old time common sense as well. What happened to the good old days when we could laugh and let others make up their own minds?
ReplyDeleteha! good point...
ReplyDeleteMr. Harper sounds like a two bit moron. I couldn't agree more with all that has been said already. When I read his letter, I immediately thought he should have said, "a hooker is something that hooks a fish." Duh.
ReplyDeleteJay, Some people just don't think that quickly when confronted with an obviously superior brain. (his 10 year old daughter)
ReplyDeletePOW! It's 3-D!
ReplyDeleteI remember driving through Las Vegas with my dad when my sister and I were in gradeschool. We asked what a topless bar was. I forget now what my dad's answer was, but let's just say, I didn't find out until much, much later in my life what it really was...
ReplyDeleteKids don't want, nor need, to know.
Mr. Harper needs to...ah, I'll be a lady.
Jay - this was totally my initial reaction too -- "When I read his letter, I immediately thought he should have said, "a hooker is something that hooks a fish." Duh."
DUH!
Erin, It's kind of cool but I'm just playing around on a rainy day.
ReplyDeleteLet's just hope his daughter isn't being home schooled.
The guy's entitled to his opinion I guess. You know what they say....
ReplyDeleteSome people need to lighten up.
ReplyDeleteWhat would a 10 year old be doing reading Fly Fisherman in the first place? Second of all 10 year olds are easily distracted. Lastly, if he is a typical 10 he has already said worse things or found them on the internet.
The guy probably visits those ladies of the night and was feeling guilty ("not that there is anything wrong with that" as Jerry Seinfeld would say) :)
Owl, yes I know what they say, "it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought stupid than open it and remove all doubt."
ReplyDeleteMac, Yes, yes and yes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
That is just a bunch of crap out of the mouth of a guy who is trying to impress those around him, those with children perhaps... Maybe he is sick, and needs some help.. did anyone think of that.. I mean who sees a fly, reads the name, and then cant even get the four letters out of it that he needs before the sick minded thoughts kick in and is reminded of the vegas strip.. Or maybe he feels guilty that his daughter knows he buys hookers now... If he created his own, where would he start?
ReplyDeleteBigerrfish...As Larry says, now thats funny right there!
ReplyDeleteJosh, As Jay Z. says, Man that's funny right there.
ReplyDeleteThanks Jay!
I get to see these 2 bit hookers all the time here lol. ..
ReplyDeleteDustin, I suggest that you wash your eyes out with soap and say 3 hail Marys.
ReplyDeleteGood post, good response, Howard. I think all of the other commenters have pretty much nailed it also. The magazine has to take some responsibility here for printing his letter. They knew it was going to "ruffle" some feathers. Just opens the door you might say!
ReplyDeleteMel, you're right and it's our obligation to let Fly Fisherman know how we feel about it. We also need to let Mr. Harper know as well.
ReplyDeleteGeez, if someone's daughter is 10 years old and he isn't ready for that conversation, then maybe he hasn't entered "adulthood" after all.
ReplyDeleteI read this this morning. My daughter likes to fly fish and has flipped through Charlies book. She is 15. Here is what happened. I asked if she knew what a hooker was and she said. Oh yea, we have some at school. I then asked her to read Harpers letter and she said. That is so stupid. It`s just a fly. So although she is not 10. There ya have a 15 year old girls opinion.
ReplyDeleteHey D, You've got a very good point. Maybe we out to report that to authorities.
ReplyDeletePat, Thanks for that. It restores some of my faith in humanity.
ReplyDeleteWell, there are such things as Hoochie" flies...does Mr.Harper object to that? When I started tying spinner rigs my main mentor and buyer said I should name each one...the nastier the name, the better they will sell. Well, I didn't. I have a "Rapier" series and a "Rapine" series but I thought naming each rig or spinner was just too much trouble and anyway, the best of the "nasty" names are already taken...sniffle. Mr. Harper ought to be reminded that he is not Mr. Craven's mother.
ReplyDeleteWelcome WDSTK3, I would agree that each fly needs a...let's say catchy name and since I would guess men buy more flies than women...POW!
ReplyDeleteI have a new fly I just thunk up and I think I've got a name that hasn't been used yet. Stand by.
Alright, I guess I didn't make my point to some of you. I'm ready to get skewered over this, I guess.
ReplyDeleteHere's the thing...the guy just wrote his opinion about the use of what he sees as inappropriate language for fly names. I didn't read anything in his letter to the editor that was particularly offensive - yet some of you seem to have a growing chip on your shoulder about it. And now we're saying that he's got some kind of problem? ( btw - it wasn't a "he" that he was worried about it was his daughter, and I know quite a few folks who are avid fly fishers that have kids who are interested in it - so let's not rule out the guy might actually be telling the truth. But with many of the comments here, the guy is guilty (of what? suggesting fly names not be associated with prostitution? oh the shame.) ....of something.
If you don't agree, then fine - but I gotta say I don't see why it would get so many anglers so worked up. The guy had an opinion. He'd rather not see flies named "douche" or "hooker" or "big johnson" or whatever. Fine. Good for him. Who cares?
This over-the-top response is strange to me.....and saying " Oh, maybe HE'S got a PROBLEM."
What? Because he professes to be a decent guy trying to protect his kids?
Holy cow, guys....some of you may need to keep in mind that not everyone is just like you.
Sorry, but whether this guy is telling the truth or not......( this may be a shock, better sit down)...there are honest, decent people out there who'd rather not have to explain to their 10 year old kid ( I was fishing hard at 10 btw and reading everything I could find about it) what a whore or a prostitute is...
but surely anyone who professes to find this objectionable can't be for real? Right? because? I mean, who's like that these days, right?
me. that's who.
I agree with the guy. It wouldn't hurt people to think a little more about what they name things? Is that worth a burning at the stake, an online hater pile-on? - or can't we just agree to disagree about it without ramping up the rhetoric to the point that this guy MUST be a child molester or something..because again...who could be that concerned with what their kids read these days right?
Owl, My point is a simple one. There are times in the life of a parent when perhaps the best answer isn't the honest answer. As so often happens, young kids sometimes ask questions that make us uncomfortable...until we realize it's not necessarily the truth they really want. Kind of like the joke about the child who asked her parents where babies come from. The parents fret wondering how you tell someone so young about the birds and the bees. After the teaching moment the little girl sits horrified that her baby doll had to go through all that instead of Wal-Mart like her friends doll.
ReplyDeleteI seriously doubt this 10 year old girl was sitting and reading daddy's Fly Fisherman magazine. But, even if she was, where does his responsibility lie? Is it to blame the magazine and the fly tier? No-it's within his realm to use good common sense and not expose her at this tender age to things HE finds objectionable.
One more point that I think you agree with. I don't want anyone (underlined) breaching my freedom of speech either. And I sure as hell don't want someone else telling me that I have to follow his rules. If Mr. Harper can't stand the fire then maybe he ought to quit playing with matches.
wow this got heated kinda fast. Charlie has the right to name anything he wants but it was up to the magazines discretion to print it.
ReplyDeleteDustin, The magazine spoke and printed the article. I'm much more offended by the fly named Crystal Meth then I am by Two-Bit Hooker. To each his own...after all, that's what American is all about.
ReplyDeleteI am with you on that one! Personally if I would have saw it printed I would not have even gave it a second look. Hell I tied the fly several months ago from seeing it on Charlies website. Life wouldn't be life unless someone has something to bitch about
ReplyDeleteYou've got that right Dustin. Lost in the mire is the fact that it is a pretty cool fly.
ReplyDeleteI am going, right now, to my vice and tie you a Howie's Knob Bobber.
ReplyDeleteThanks for sending the recipe.
Make it a dozen Clif, I lost the recipe.
ReplyDeletethere is a knob bobber? Oh someone please post that hahaha
ReplyDeleteCouple things:
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost, if this guy has got his ducks in a row to the point that the biggest think he has to worry about is the fly angling community corrupting his daughter, well then, slow clap, Harper. You've got us all beat. Seriously, of all the groups out there to take to task for being inappropriate, he chooses the fly fishers?! That'd be like me blaming the one or two wine tastings I go to each year for corrupting my palate with potent potables.
Second, and more to the point, this comment is a perfect illustration of this logical fallacy that is so endemic to American society of thinking that good parenting is the responsibility of the environment. It isn't Fly Fisherman's magazine's responsibility to make sure that Mr. Harper's tender sensibilities are safe and sound. It's also not their responsibility to properly rear his progeny. How about instead of writing letters to the editor, if you don't want your kid reading about fishing flies and their names, you put your FF magazines up on the top shelf?
Finally, while I'm not a parent, I can definitely see some danger in telling a 10 year old a white lie to tide them over until their teenage years. I could easily see myself at ten, standing with friends of the family, having poor luck fishing, and commenting, "What I really need is a HOOKER!" because someone had explained that little tidbit in a less than accurate manner.
But if Mr. Harper can't come up with a happy medium, I still don't see how it's an editor's fault. From the sidelines, it appears that parenting, in simplest form, is handling a long series of unforseen events. Nobody said it was easy, but you can't go around blaming your lack of preparedness on the environment. If you don't want your daughter reading FF magazine, don't let her. If you didn't know that was in there, that's not the editor's fault.
Dustin, I think that was Clif's way of making a point. It's his recipe, you'll have to get it from him...the master knob bobber.
ReplyDeleteI know, I didn't catch on till after I posted. Sounds like a challenge to make a fly named that. Sounds like a popper fly :)
ReplyDeleteI agree with all you guys. I learn so much stuff that is WAY worse than that at school. It'd be like saying the Bitch Creek fly is inappropriate. If she's home schooled, she still has the internet. If she doesn't use the internet, she still has contact with people. If she doesn't have contact with people, well then I feel very bad for this girl and this father needs help. Then again, I personally think this story is fake and the guy is just looking for attention.
ReplyDeleteAre you guys talking about what I think you're talking about...? hmmm...hh wait, I probably don't really want to know... ;)
ReplyDeleteDang! Howard, you're really getting good at this challenge thing as of late...
Dustin, I think I'll leave that to the bass fisherman.
ReplyDeleteMark, All of your points are well taken and I appreciate it. As you so eloquently pointed out, parents have passed on their parenting responsibilities to anyone they can, teachers, other parents, police...always somebody else's fault. I doubt the child was traumatized near as much as dad was. In regards to the "little white lie", I can see a many situations where we as parents do it every day; tooth fairies, Santa Claus and the Easter bunny to name a few. A good parent knows when to stop with the fibbing and talk straight. My whole point at the beginning of this.
Hey Justin, thanks for throwing your two-bits (sorry, bad joke)into the fray. I know kids learn much worse stuff hanging with friends or on the internet...I've got two.
ReplyDeleteI've got an idea, let's rename a few common things we find in the world so no one get's upset. Richard Tracy, the comic strip hero, Kittywillow, Kitty Galore from 007, ah, chicken chests, ad nauseous.
Hmmm, I guess my parents were weird then. I grew up knowing there was no such thing as santa, the easter bunny, or tooth fairy.
ReplyDelete...then again, I was the buzz-kill that had to think everything out. I remember pointing out to a classmate in grade school (and probably ruining his childhood) that the whole santa thing can't possibly be true because MY chimney led straight to the furnace, where santa wouldn't last long against an army of BTUs...
hahah chicken chests... that made my day
ReplyDeleteErin, I'm the most non-confrontational person around. I thought the original letter was interesting because it seemed like his anger was misplaced and he had some responsibility. "I didn't say or mean to say that the Beatles are better or greater than God. I just said what I said and now it's all this."
ReplyDeleteMark, Ha! So you were the one that stole Christmas! I thought there was a Santa Claus til I was in my early 20s. Who brought those gifts then?
ReplyDeleteI remember sitting in my living room by the fire place all night, holding a BB gun (when I was 7, sketchy). Someone walked in and put presents down, I'm pretty sure at this point I shot my dad in the ass. Ooops
ReplyDeleteDustin, the rod...scratch that...the pole...scratch that also, the uh fishing stick thingy will be on it's way tomorrow. Now I'm laughing.
ReplyDeleteWhy on God's green Earth is a reverent man like Mr. Harper subjecting himself and his family to the evils of fly fishing by reading such a morally corrupt publication such as Fly Fisherman? (gasp)
ReplyDeleteThank you so much! I got some flies to test! Finally got my license. We can go on for days PC'ing everything around us. But the rod did make me giggle
ReplyDeleteNow...I am laughing too...
ReplyDeleteThis Harper fellow...he isn't by chance related to that woman who sued McDonald's for serving her hot coffee (perish the thought!) that she then burnt herself with?
ReplyDeleteFrom what little experience I've had with kids in that age range, I'd have probably gone the route of 'answer the question they're thinking, not the question they're asking', and simply explained that whoever had designed that fly had decided to name it the two bit hooker...see the two beads, and the hook?
While some might take the underdog and the points, my money's on that explanation being good enough for the time being.
Justin, why did your dad bring me Christmas presents? Tell him I said thanks...he still owes me a Red Ryder b-b gun.
ReplyDeleteHi Kirk, welcome to the madness. I was thinking the same thing. I know for sure there is an ad in this months mag touting the Bank Robber fly stick and the fornication jail.
ReplyDeleteErin, laughter is good for the soul. (can I talk religion here?) Scat!
ReplyDeleteCofisher, Justin's dad brought you presents because santa burnt to a crisp in my furnace, unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteSorry bout that.
Howard - ha! I saw that ad...bam...! on the back page. Oh the irony. hehe. Laughter IS good for the soul...it could be a religion in and of itself...
ReplyDeleteWay to call this snitzel out on his lack of a sense of humor. Its funny because my mind is sometimes in the gutter so to speak and I didn't even think that naming a fly "A two bit HOoker" was anything but funny. I have a daughter and I would have just said "Oh you know know its tied on a hook, and is known for hooking fish. I think it is funny how some people actually live inside a box their whole life... Great Post! That guy needs to grow up and learn how to be a parent. Put down the magazine and do your job. Instead of writing a letter to a magazine, take your daughter out fishing. Some people
ReplyDeleteHoward... Now you and I have to go fishing as I want to be able to say I fish with the guy who started the biggest fly fishing blog S--t Storm I've ever seen!
ReplyDeleteIn truth all of us who have parented a child into adulthood have had to deal with questions that far exceed "what's a hooker"? The key word there being "Parent"... At any rate I fear I'm doomed to a sleepless night lying in bed thinking up shady names for some still untied fly pattern.
Good night Howard.....
Its a good thing they did not discuss Kelly Galloup fly names. I imagine the Butt Monkey and Sex Dungeon would ruffle some feathers. Creative names. Somewhat funny, but probably wrong. Sells lots of flies though.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteHey Howard you can be the Howard Stern of the blogs. He discovered that talking about women from the island of Lesbos got people to listen to him. You wrote about hookers and look at the response you got.
ReplyDeleteMark, that's in poor taste, I'm tellin' on you.
ReplyDeleteErin, hey girl this is serious business.
TM, Here, here. I'll drink a shooter for you. Oops, can I say that?
WOW, This is some serious stuff Cofish. Being a Dad with 3 kids and a computer its endless at what they can get there hands on . Even TV is a education now days. I would say most kids today know what a 2 bit hooker AND where you can find one. Innocence is hard to find .
ReplyDeleteHoly smokes - what a party I missed! We don't have kids, and the first thing I said to Dustin, was the guy was an idiot. Just tell your daughter it is a fly used to catch fish. The girl would say okay and then go back to her 10 year old kid stuff. Surely this guy can't be that big of buffoon that he really told her what a hooker is. Pretty ridiculous.
ReplyDelete-stephanie
To Everyone that commented, I want to say thanks for the "lively" discussion. I think it's fair to say that this subject got a unbiased hearing. The facts were presented in whole. No one was censored except one man who posted a message to the Owl, that I thought was better left unsaid on my page. Everyone made good points.
ReplyDeleteMy only point from the beginning was that in this case the parent pointed a guilty finger at a good man and a magazine's policy. The only harm was the man's "honesty" with a child that probably still doesn't understand what a hooker is. #
So...I read all eighty bajillion comments and still down know what a hooker is...
ReplyDeletePersonally, I don't understand all the hullabaloo on either side. My 5 year old daughter enjoys (& tells) fart jokes...I (some may think sadly) encourage her by laughing at them. If somebody wants to raise their kid in a Puritanical fashion, and voice opinions to support such, that's their prerogative.
Let's face it, there's exploitation all around. Charlie, the saint he may be, named the fly what he did for the "edgy" double entendre effect. That's his right. This Todd dude took exception and wanted to toot his "holier than thou" morality horn. That's his right. The magazine printed it because it makes for good debate and gets a rise out of people (as evidenced by this post). That's their right. As it was your right to write this retort. Sounds like much ado about nothing to me.
That said, it's my right to scroll back up and play with that memorizing rotating 3D cube some more.
AMEN! Let's put this one to bed... ;) And hopefully the Midgeman was able to get some sleep...
ReplyDeleteMike, I almost completely agree with you.
ReplyDeleteDamsel, There will be no Amening on my blog...I'm offended. Ha!
Guys and Ladies. There is nothing wrong with good debate. (whether this was good or not is still undecided) Let's do it again sometime...
Fart jokes are the best. If someone disagrees that is fine by me. They can even declare to the world that dirty langua...i mean...fart jokes are bad, I won't give a crap if they do.
ReplyDeleteNot on purpose anyway.
Clif, sometimes it's hard to tell whether you are joking or serious. I prefer joking if that's ok with you.
ReplyDeleteIt was a little of both so your confusion is understandable. A perfect blend of my thoughts on the subject and a joke about crapping while fart chasing.
ReplyDeleteAnd I may not have been completely unserious about Howie's Knob Bobber...I've got some ideas about how to make it happen.
Clif, Okay, I'll be standing by.
ReplyDeleteShame on you guys for posting this disgusting stuff on the internet and making me look stupid.You should really be careful in what you post.
ReplyDeleteMy 10 year old niece reads these blogs that I have on my blog list from time to time and she somehow ended up on this post. Now she wants to know what a two bit hooker is. I know what a hooker is (that oke that hooks the ball in a rugby scrum), but can anyone explain to me what a two bit hooker is please?
All this being said...
ReplyDelete...does anyone else kind of roll their eyes at the suggestively named flies? I think there's some great flies that lost a bit of greatness when the creator tried to make them a little 'cooler' in the naming.
Not offended, just underwhelmed.
And yes, I'm looking at you, Mr. Galloup.
If there was a 10-year old daughter, I would be surprised if she didn't already know what a hooker was. She was probably just looking for daddy's blessing.
ReplyDeleteand
I knew I liked cofisher....gottal love Pepsi, the sweet elixer of youth.
and
Whoa, cool spinnin' cube!
bhive
Can I be the first one to congratulate you on the longest comment log I have see so far
ReplyDeleteYes, a long log deserves recognition. Make sure your buddy sees.
ReplyDeleteAFA, Assuming you're serious, a two-bit hooker is a cheap prostitute.
ReplyDeleteMark, I don't know. I guess I don't really think about fly names. Some people apparently do.
Anonymous, Thank you, but you've got poor taste. I've been watching this cube for three days awaiting for it to do something special.
Dustin, you can, but I really didn't know all this was going to happen.
Clif, I'll let people find this as they may. I'm not taking any bows.
I am going to make an 82nd comment, just because I feel like I missed out on a rager of a comment party. I agree with the general consensus of the comment party. Double entendres are entertaining and make for a good fly name.
ReplyDeleteThe two-bit idiot comment from Jay has to be my favorite from the 81 previous comments. good on you Jay.
Ivan, the door is always open for you. Better late than never right? I was surprised how quickly the emotions got going on that subject.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Ivan.
ReplyDeleteJay, you are a gem, if one man can say that to another.
ReplyDelete